Thursday, April 23, 2009

That Question I asked Yesterday

Yesterday I asked a question about torture. I asked if it were proven that torture stopped another 9-11 attack would you change your mind about acts such as water boarding. The reason I asked that question was for a gut check on myself.

Forget the legalities, I just have such a deeply lodged, stomach churning contempt for even the word “torture” that I can’t imagine any human being doing it. How could anyone condone the screams and horrors of watching such a thing take place? How could anyone allow for such horrendous barbarous treatment of human beings or for that matter any living creature?

My repulsion for such things goes deeper than I can explain in words. To that end I wondered if I was or should be more objective about the subject. Maybe I was blinded to something by my own repulsion. Maybe there was something rational that I was missing. Maybe I was just a wimp. The only thing I know for sure is that to my way of thinking it was and is, in every way, a crime by humanity against humanity. No matter what others may say, in my heart I know that torture is intolerable and inexcusable.


Blogger Fixer said...

I feel comfortable saying most rational, thinking people feel the same way.

April 23, 2009 3:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As Chris Rock observed, "What's the matter with crazy? You can't be crazy, no more?"

Don't try to find a rational explanation; there isn't one. Remember, they're crazy. Let's not waste the time analyzing these monsters, because it leads to a dead end.

I think the larger issue is making sure it doesn't happen again.

April 23, 2009 6:23 AM  
Blogger dguzman said...

I feel exactly the same way: that gut-level, bile-in-your-throat sensation whenever I even think of what's been done in our names. I couldn't look at more than one of the Abu Ghraib photos before I just started crying and had to look away. To think that any human being could do such things to others, and then pose, smiling, beside their bound bodies--I'm feeling that bile in my throat and those tears in my eyes again.

Great post, Pop.

April 23, 2009 6:31 AM  
Anonymous abi said...

in my heart I know that torture is intolerable and inexcusableIt also doesn't work, according to professional interrogators. What it can accomplish is getting the victim to say anything you want - which is handy if you're trying to fake "evidence" to justify invading Iraq.

April 23, 2009 6:55 AM  
Blogger robin andrea said...

Exactly, Pop. What does it say about a person that he or she could actually tolerate doing that to another human? Or about an administration that would order their subordinates to do it?

April 23, 2009 8:05 AM  
Blogger LeftLeaningLady said...

PoP, it was a great question and I felt that gut check also. I wanted to immediately say NO, but I also wanted to answer honestly, so I never got around to commenting.

The fact is that torture is never, never acceptable. Never. And there is no way to call it 'proven to work' because it doesn't.

I happen to subscribe to the thought that it is better to let 100 guilty men go free than to incarcerate even one innocent man. I also believe that it is better to be murdered than to stain your soul with torture. (These thoughts get me in a lot of trouble with my crazy right wing friends and family).

April 23, 2009 9:02 AM  
Blogger Ole Blue The Heretic said...

I am a veteran and member of the American Legion. I was told that under any circumstance that we should uphold the Geneva Conventions or risk Court martial.

I still believe in that.

April 23, 2009 6:39 PM  
Blogger two crows said...

hi PoP--

the only way to have empathy is, imo, to remain subjective-- to ask the question, "Would I want that done to me?"

April 24, 2009 7:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Another 9/11 prevented via torture?

The other evening the issues permeated our thoughts until I recalled those 50+ nations' written warnings given the Bush administration that a 9/11 event was on it's way...those warnings were ignored/mocked, as we all know.

Those nation's who provided the warnings to our White House through their normal intelligence gathering protocols...NOT from use of torture.

Also the bombings in the EU were NOT prevented even though we were torturing in GITMO, Iraq, Afghanistan and at the infamous black op prisons.....

We also know that GW and cabal had ordered torture to make someone, anyone, say that Iraq was responsible for 9/11 since they were unable to convince the global community either "be with us or against us" in attacking a sovereign nation for natural resources. Those tortured statements GW needed linking Iraq to 9/11...and now we know that is exactly why the torture tapes were destroyed: they didn't get the results linking Iraq....and most are well aware the results were confessions that a Saudi Prince and a Pakistani General were the financial backers and planners for 9/11.

In the earliest days of the "war with Iraq" was infuriating to know/recall, as well as the that the rest of the world was well aware

...that Saddam Hossein was a mortal enemy of bin Laden and any type of religious rule/gov't - for decades - The global voices (and us here who knew) were threatened with "either with us or against us" saber rattling....American's were called names, fired, lives, families, careers destroyed...silencing the voices.

Those nation's who were blackmailed to be "with us".... not only aware they would be attacked by the US as Iraq/Afghanistan.... their nations economies were threatened if they didn't let GW have his war President legacy.

Sorry for the lengthy post but it had to be said.

April 28, 2009 9:28 AM  
Blogger Jaliya said...

Patricia, you're no wimp, and your revulsion doesn't blind you. I think it's a natural and instinctive reaction to a chosen infliction of pain that only ramps up humanity's critical mass of suffering, fear, rage ...

April 28, 2009 5:05 PM  
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