Thursday, November 16, 2006

Some things I want to share

I truly enjoyed reading your diverse comments regarding your plans for Thanksgiving. Some made me laugh out loud but I better not say which ones.

Your comments are always so interesting and oft times seriously insightful. Lots of your comments are shared with Mr. Pop, especially the funny ones.

The comments Fred the Cat gets are fun and they always make me smile. They make Fred smile too, one of his great big old kitty cat smiles.

The new bedding is beyond wonderful. The bed is now about 8 or 9 inches taller than it used to be. That makes such a difference with the sheets and bedspread. Luckily the last sheets I bought about two weeks ago have super deep pockets. The old bed was lost in them but on the new one, they are, to quote Goldilocks, “just right”.

This is a bed now made for sweet dreams.

A little post script on the old bedding. I asked the guys what would happen to the old bed. They said it would be donated to a church group who gives them to people who need them. I love knowing that and I also love knowing that my old bed won’t be landfill material just yet.

And now for a question that has been floating around in my head. Do you think if we had allowed Iraqis to rebuild their country from the very start, they would now take pride in it and wouldn’t allow anyone to come into their country to harm it? Had Halliburton not stepped in to run the show and had the professionals of Iraq done all the work, do you believe they would have a army now who wanted to protect what had been done?

Seems to me we all take more pride in and protect more, that which we ourselves have worked for and created.

34 Comments:

Blogger Lew Scannon said...

I think you're on to something here. Perhaps if they had been busy rebuilding their country, they wouldn't have time to join the insurgency, or form religious militias. Of course, there wouldn't have been any profit in it for Dick Cheney, which makes your plan all the more better.

November 16, 2006 3:27 AM  
Blogger Undeniable Liberal said...

The Iraqis didn't have any problem rebuilding all the bridges and the electrical grid after we bombed the shit out of them in the first gulf war. They were close to rebuilt within a year. Like Lew says, this time it's all about the profit.

November 16, 2006 4:23 AM  
Anonymous Lily said...

Interesting, PoP. But then again we were told that their oil money would rebuild...how is THAT plan coming?

Enjoy your new bed. Thats good that you passed your old one on.

November 16, 2006 5:24 AM  
Blogger BBC said...

I don't think we should have went there for sure. But could they rebuild their country if we wasn't there?

After some fashion I suppose, as pointed out above. But lets face it, those folks have been fighting each other for a long time.

What a mess. Yup, Halliburton is just about money for themselves. I wonder how many locals they hire?????

November 16, 2006 6:07 AM  
Blogger Robert said...

What a shock! A private company that is interested in profit...can the world survive?

The touchy feely approach might make you warm and fuzzy, but it is so beyond reality that I don't even understand how you can structure a sentence around it. Are you saying that we should have removed Saddan and then left? Do you think the Iraqis were prepared to repel an Iranian invasion? Do you think that there would have been any semblance of democracy?

It is slow, and frustrating. Most thinks worth having are worth working for, and sometimes it takes longer than a week or a year.

It would probably be easier if everyone would get on board and supprt the effort, rather than try to derail it at every turn.

November 16, 2006 6:31 AM  
Blogger Robert said...

I forgot something, sorry for the double post.

You think, Lew, that if they had been employed as electrical workers that their hatred of western values would be put aside? I know it is difficult for liberals to understand the difference between a positions and a real belief and principle, but be serious.

How about Midnight Baghdad Basketball? Think that might work? Maybe have a basketball for bomb trade, and everything will be peachy?

November 16, 2006 6:34 AM  
Blogger Peacechick Mary said...

I think you have hit the human nature nail on the head, PoP. In fact, I think the Iraqis are pleased to destroy what the U.S. has built as it does not represent their culture. We could have empowered them and given them the protection (from a distance) to develop something very beautiful. But, that would have undermined the sole purpose for war - to make money for the war profiteers.

November 16, 2006 6:37 AM  
Blogger Donnie McDaniel said...

Never should have started to begin with. I guess Robert still thinks Iraq had something to do with 9/11.

November 16, 2006 7:00 AM  
Blogger fallenmonk said...

It's a nice thought but you can't undo what is now done and so wrongfully so. If we are going to think about how Iraq should be, could have been think about what the country would be like today if we had not nearly destroyed them with sanctions for a decade. How would Iraq be today if the we had taken just a third of the money we have spent destroying the country and instead invested in it. Saddam was a creature created by the U.S. and we could have made it worth his while to stand aside while we helped the country prosper.

November 16, 2006 7:33 AM  
Blogger mariamaria said...

You cannot bring people democracy at the end of a gun.

November 16, 2006 7:35 AM  
Blogger Darwin's Dagger said...

I sorta I had similar thoughts here Failure in Iraq, Part 1: Freedom Fries

November 16, 2006 8:54 AM  
Blogger The Minstrel Boy said...

we will never know. we've already gone in and brought about the chaos and the destruction of civilized behavior. too many times they talk about "what we will do" or "what we should have done" like the iraqis have no part to play. the hardest thing to watch is the way our kids are still dying because bush would rather call for "one more big push" than admit that he's wrong and has been wrong and killed our kids for nothing.

November 16, 2006 9:07 AM  
Blogger Sewmouse said...

You know, Robert - you toe your party's line so very well. Pity it's so wrong on so many levels.

The kid who has to save up his paper-route money to get a car and go to college CARES for his car, and values his education.

The spoiled little rich boy who has Mummy and Pops pay for everything values nothing, joins a Frat, crashes his Beemer and drinks his way to a C- or worse GPA.

The countries of Eastern Europe - most notably Rumania - FOUGHT to get their OWN freedom and democracy. They didn't have another country come in and FORCE it on them. Theirs are doing well.

The Iraqi people are in the process of getting back exactly the same type of government they always had - a pseudo-democracy, with elections and all, but essentially a corrupt dictatorship, now even WORSE than before, because it's run by Theocratic Nutjobs.

You know - if you listened to the TRUTH - and the facts of history, instead of buying everything that Rush Limpbaugh and Annie Banannie spews, you'd have a MUCH more realistic view of the world, Snookiedimples.

November 16, 2006 10:53 AM  
Blogger azgoddess said...

IF and i say IF the right people are still left in Iraq ( the people are fleeing by the thousands there)

then they can re-build without our military help

i do think we owe them financial help

nice about the old bed!!

November 16, 2006 11:04 AM  
Blogger HillCountryGal said...

POP, you have a troll. I am impressed. Bet he's stateside, too. Heaven knows he's not in country.
I don't know the answer to your question. I just know my 19-year-old much-loved niece is in Iraq. Serving in the US Military. And she is terrified all the time. War sucks ass. For everyone. Except, of course, the chickenhawks. And the war profiteers.

November 16, 2006 11:28 AM  
Blogger Robert said...

Anything but a troll. I don't pop in jsut to rouse comments and emotions. I read here all the time, but rarely post. When I do, I present and opinion and/or facts for discussion. I am indeed stateside, whatever that has to do with anything. My service ended in 1992, not long after I returned from my own combat experience in Desert Storm.

In all of these comments I see where the blame is directed toward the US. If only we had not....if only we didn't...

How about, if only Saddam had been a leader for the people of Iraq and not a tyrant? How about if people realize what the radical islamic goal really is?

Sewmouse, your examples are faulty because they are generalizations without any supporting facts. Romania..hardly Iraq, for so many reasons that I have no idea where to start. They fought for freedom from another oppresssive government, not from a position of civil war. Iraqis are standing up and fighting-many of them in the police and military services, and unfortunately, in the insurgency as well. It is another example of the culture and how it must be changed with support and security from friendly nations.

War does suck for everyone, just like surgery and root canals. Sometimes it just has to be done.

November 16, 2006 11:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Robert, Iraq was not an essentially sectarian or anti-Western society until we blew the crap out of their infrastructure and let loose the dogs of war. (I truly think you're confusing Iraq with Iran. Please do study up on Middle Eastern cultures when you get a minute.)

We eliminated the primary source of stability in the country (awful though he was.) We didn't replace it with anything remotely useful. We disbanded their army. We created a huge pool of unemployed, pissed off men. We refused to use the talents of Iraqi engineers and other essential professionals (of which there were more than a few women) to rebuild.

We didn't spend enough time or money or care in planning anything beyond shock and awe.

We still don't have the intelligence or the diplomatic skills (including translators) to bring any kind of stability to this region.

It's awful that we're there; we shouldn't be. It's insane and mindblowing that the current administration didn't and doesn't have the motivation or competence to make our presence there anything but a wreck.

I want our troops home, and I want them home with honor and a sense that they accomplished something important.

But even in my wildest dreams, I just don't see how it can happen, in six months or six years, now that we've torn out the roots of tolerance and education in the society as a whole.

As far as profit and private business goes, I'm all for making a profit. But if that's all you're making, and if you're making it by means of genocide and destabilization of an entire hemisphere, then I think that's a little over the top, even for Dick Cheney.

What's left of the Iraqi people don't seem to have much of an investment in anything other than staying alive. That's all we've left them with, because this administration doesn't know how to empower people without disenfranchising others.

Sorry for the rant, POP.

~Andi (until I can figure out how to work this beta-blogger madness.)

November 16, 2006 12:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm sorry Robert, I'm sure you're not confusing anything - I didn't realize you'd served there and have some personal experience in the region.

November 16, 2006 12:25 PM  
Blogger PoliShifter said...

If we truly wanted to nation build and create a democracy we would have flooded Iraq with money and made sure every Iraqi had a paying job rebuilding their country.

Instead Halliburton, KBR, Bechtel, BlackWater, USIS, etc ad nauseum got the cash and in many cases hired foreign workers.

The elephant in the room no one talks about (still) is the Vatican sized permanent base we are building in Iraq.

I mean, really, what type of signal does that send? "We're never leaving guys...sorry"

We should have followed the desert crossing plan by Zinni. We should not have disbanded the Iraqi Army or disenfranchised the Baath Party. We should not have allowed looting to go on.

More importantly we should have recognized that the insurgents in Iraq are Iraqis, not terorists, who have certain needs and desires. We should have opened a dialogue with them rather than deeming them terrorists with Bush sayind "we don't negotiate".

With no jobs, men turned to the only paying position they could find, a position in the militia.

We also should have thought twice about how we approached Iraqis. Kicking in their doors at 3:00 in the morning forcing old men, women, and children to lie face down on the ground with a gun pointed at their head isn't exactly a winning hearts and minds operation.

There was never a concern for creating a stable Iraq and there sitll isn't. What there are are war pigs feeding at the tax payer trough. They don't care about anything but money.

We're never leaving Iraq. Nope. We're sending more troops and building permanent bases.

Now the politicians don't want to do anything rash like *gasp* redeploy our troops.

In another 5 years or so when people are thoroughly disgusted they will finally leave but not before tens of thousands more die and hundreds of billions of dollars more evaporate.

November 16, 2006 1:09 PM  
Blogger Sewmouse said...

Robert, it's very apparent your reading comprehension skills have serious deficiencies.

"So many reasons I hardly know where to start" - name one. Name one example that contradicts my premise. You can't. As a matter of fact, you PROVE my premise with your statement " They fought for freedom from another oppresssive government, not from a position of civil war." Guess what, Brain Surgeon - that's exactly my point. THEY fought. They didn't have Democracy FORCED upon them like the Iraqi.

You just don't get it - obviously. Let me type REAL SLOW so maybe you can get it.

Iraq
Didn't
Have
A
Civil
War
Until
Shrub-boy
Invaded

Was Saddam an evil, bad, monkey man? Hell yes. Do we go in and remove EVERY evil, bad, monkey man in power in every country around the globe?

Um

No.

GWB had his own reasons for invading Iraq. In fact, from his VERY FIRST DAY in office, he wanted to find some excuse - ANY EXCUSE - to invade Iraq. Sources have said that after he got done reading My Pet Goat, his first reaction to the news about 9/11/01 was to insist it had been the Iraqis.

His PERSONAL obsession with Saddam Hussein (most likely due to the assassination contract said Saddam had been rumored to have taken out on GHWB) is what led us first into this quagmire. This war isn't about freedom. It isn't about democracy. It isn't about keeping the world safe from terrorists.

It is a PERSONAL VENDETTA for George Walker Bush, who is using the power of his office, and the LIVES OF OUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS to exact his own PERSONAL revenge.

And to say that I'm wrong about people who will value what they, themselves, have worked to achieve more than those who have had it handed to them or forced upon them...

Lemme guess....
Daddy bought you your Beemer?

November 16, 2006 1:13 PM  
Blogger Mimus Pauly said...

For all the rhetoric the Bush administration has spewed over the last few years about liberating and bringing democracy to Iraq, I find it singularly strange that the opinions of the people of Iraq, whatever they may be, seem to have played no role whatsoever in the decision to invade that country. In the months-long run-up to the invasion, where, exactly, did the democracy part come into play? Nearly all I heard from the Bush administration from mid-2002 to March 19, 2003, was Saddam this (he has WMDs), Saddam that (he has ties to al-Qaida), Saddam the other thing (he's close to developing nucular weapons), and Saddam that other thing over there as well (he's a really really evil prick -- look at the crimes against humanity he committed way back when when he was our evil prick!). I don't recall hearing much of what real live Iraqis had to say around that time courtesy of the same media outlets that gave Bush & Co. all the air time they wanted.

Of course, that might have put a damper on the collective support for an invasion. A little doubt can go a long way in dispelling true belief. Best to just marginalize the doubt from the git go...

November 16, 2006 1:49 PM  
Blogger robin andrea said...

Interesting discussion here. I tend to avoid these things, but I did want to say that it was my understanding that the reason the US did not invade Baghdad during Desert Storm was precisely because we knew that this would be the eventual outcome. A civil war was predictable, and it is what we got. Yes, it has been exacerbated by external interests, like Iran, but that was a known knowable long before it occurred. The US invasion of Iraq was executed purely for mercenary reasons although couched in the language of anti-terrorism. We stirred up the passions of the three factions that have lived with an uneasy and often bitter truce since the creation of the state of Iraq. For the administration to pretend that it did not know there would be such a bitter, bloody civil war is as believable as Condi Rice saying no one ever thought terrorists would fly planes into buildings. We added insult to injury after we gave no-bid contracts to Halliburton for the rebuilding of Iraq. There were other ways to rebuild the infrastructure that would have also helped strengthen a society that had long been fractious. I believe George Bush had it right when he said in one of the Presidential Debates that he did not believe in nation building. The truth of the matter is, he still doesn't, which is why Iraq looks the way it does.

November 16, 2006 1:55 PM  
Blogger Time said...

It doesn't matter what we should have done, could have done, or will do; as soon as we toppled Saddam, Iraq was going to be a blood bath.

Even if we stay in Iraq for 10 years, as soon as we leave the sides will fight it out.

Papa knew better than to march to Bagdad, to bad the son couldn't figure it out.

Sad, but we should probably just leave and let the Iraqis fight it out amongst themselves.

They might unite to fight off Iran taking over their country, but they probably would lose a war with Iran.

We never should have gone in, and now we will leave, and the real blood bath will start. I blame that on Crack Boy!

November 16, 2006 4:04 PM  
Blogger Robert said...

Nope, daddy didn't buy me a beemer. My father retired formt he MArine Corps after 21 years of service, including 14 months in Korea and another 12 months early in Vietnam. He has far more scars than the four purple hearts that he wears.

In your attempt to disprove my statements, you need to open your mind. I am not talking abotu WHO did the fighting. I am talking about the circumstances around the fighting. There are few, if any, comparisons between a country fighting an oppressive communist regime and a country starting a new form of government from scratch, being composed of two different religious factions that don't attack the government, but attack each other.

Andi, we don't disagree. There have been many mistakes, alot of them ours, many of them Iraq's. I agree that the disbanding en masse the Iraqi Army was a mistake. So was the failure to take advantage of Iraqi talent for the rebuilding.

I am familiar with the culture, thank you. I have spend a significant portion of my life in uniform and in the region (Kuwait, Saudi, Bahrain, and briefly in Iraq). Iraq has been a sectarian society for some time. The Kurds were forced to live in isolation in the north, and the Shia lived with a Baathist boot on the back of their necks.

It might surprise you that I support the three province structure that Joe Biden has proposed. I have supported that idea from the beginning.

We should be exerting pressure on the Iraqi government to take the reins and move forward. Progress has all but stopped, or so it seems. Timetables should remain in the closet and not be discussed publicly.

Finally, Robin Andrea, the decision to invade Baghdad was not done to prevernt a civil war. It was done to keep the coalition of nations together. The islamic countries barely tolerated the West engaging an Islamic country, much less deposing a government, regardless of the level of evil and threat it imposed. 9/11 changed that, and the more moderate nations knew that there was a need to confront nations in the region.

November 16, 2006 4:09 PM  
Blogger sumo said...

Between Snookiedimples and Crack Boy...I am dying here laughing my head off. I think Desert Storm was a blip on the radar screen. We shouldn't have gone in there either. In fact...we don't have a right to go anywhere...anymore. We are soooo reviled by other nations it's a wonder we can hold our heads up at all. The right thing for us to do is tuck the tail between the legs and back out ass first with a clear eye at what is coming for us. And the Crack Boy is at fault for that shit! POP was right on in what she said as what should have been done. And you know what? It took a woman to say it! The Village Idiot led us astray...and we are paying for it. Me personally...I didn't buy it from the beginning...so I don't have blood on my hands...I voted against the little worm...I blogged shit about him and his cabal at every turn...what they've done...they've done on their own with a certain amount of help from some of the citizens. They are the people that have to wake up in a sweat at night seeing the mangled bloodied bodies screaming out their names...not mine. Dub woke the dragon of war and it is still breathing fire...and I hope he is consumed in it along with his sneering friends...and the lying liars that have helped him...FAUX news!

November 16, 2006 4:36 PM  
Blogger BBC said...

Robert.. I spent four years in the Navy.... Why? Because I was young and stupid and brainwashed. I would never do it again, fight someone else's wars for them. Why did you do it and still defend it? Never mind, I know. You are still stupid. :-) And what makes you think everyone in here is a liberal?

November 16, 2006 5:29 PM  
Blogger The Future Was Yesterday said...

I see you lit another roman candle.:)
The bedding: Glad you like it - but the real, and final quality control test is - does FRED like it?

Rebuilding Iraq - to the the extent they'd had trenches to squat and pee in. Too many religions in that country that absolutely LOVE war - literally. For them, war is the ultimate way to serve God (or what the hell ever it is they worship). Their bullshit was going on long before we ever got there. We just made it a little easier.

And Robert: Remember those comments you made about making profits, when a doctor and/or a hospital gouges you into bankruptcy for your Daughter's care. You are one dumb son of a bitch!!!

November 16, 2006 7:05 PM  
Blogger Troll Watcher said...

Robert,
I guess the Iraqi people were too busy greeting American forces as liberators to help rebuild their country.

November 16, 2006 7:52 PM  
Blogger Anon-Paranoid said...

Robert....

I respect your service too our country, but you are wrong about Iraq. We never should have started a War there. You can not build a Democracy at the end of a gun barrel like Der Fuehrer is saying were doing.

We have over one hundred and forty nine thousand troops there now and he wants to send another twenty thousand into the Valley of the Shadow of Death. That's insane.

They are sitting in the middle of the Buffalos Horns just like Custer was at Big Horn. They have one way and only one way out. What happens if there retreat route is closed to them? I'll tell you. They will all die. Is that what you want.

We have lost Lebannon because Isreal not only bomb the city back too the stone ages, but because they also fired on and killed the Christians in the Christian sector there. All to go after Hamas.

Now were hearing rumors that Isreal is looking to bomb Irans Nuclear Facilities. Both Russia and China have interests in Irans Oil supply and will ally with them if a War breaks out against Isreal.

Not only that, but if Iran is attacked all the rest of the Arab Nations will back Iran and the road to safety for our troops in Iraq will be closed as they are surrounded.

Then Der Fuehrer will push the button and Nuke the area. World War III will ensue and goodbye everyone.

I really don't look forward to being Raptured, but if its going to happen then I say "Bring It On". When Der Fuehrer Bush first ran for office he told the American People that China had Nukes pointed at us. Guess what, they still do as do Russia and now probably also India and Pakistan.

Enjoy your family as it appears that we won't have much more time too spend with those we love under Der Fuehrer Bush and his Republican Fascist Nazi's.

Those would be the Mullahs of the Evangelican Christian Right who believe that everyone is going to Hell anyway if you don't convert and accept Jesus as your Saviour.

That's not the Jesus I know or what he taught to his followers. There are zealots in all religions and like the Muslum Nations have theres, we also have ours.

So don't come here and tell those of us that believe we were wrong in illegally invading Iraq we don't have any idea what were talking about. If that's what you truly believe than I feel sorry for you and wish you the best.

We all will answwer for what we have done in our lives when we meet our maker. If you live your life as Jesus or any of the other great religious leaders and teachers taught than you will be judge rightiously, if not than God help you.

God Bless all.

November 16, 2006 9:35 PM  
Blogger Newsguy said...

"The spoiled little rich boy who has Mummy and Pops pay for everything values nothing, joins a Frat, crashes his Beemer and drinks his way to a C- or worse GPA."

Good post. Hey, that describes George W. Bush!

And let me remind the congregation that we kinda got off the subject here. Morning Martini has posted an absolutely brilliant idea. I quote:

"Do you think if we had allowed Iraqis to rebuild their country from the very start, they would now take pride in it and wouldn’t allow anyone to come into their country to harm it? Had Halliburton not stepped in to run the show and had the professionals of Iraq done all the work, do you believe they would have a army now who wanted to protect what had been done?"

None of the members of Congress or the President or any of the intelligence geniuses, none of them ever seems to have floated or even considered this idea. I never heard it kicked around on CNN or CSPAN.

This strategy would have provided jobs for the men who are out in the streets right now with AK 47s gunning down our troops and setting IEDs. This strategy would have given the Iraqi people something to take pride in, building their infrastructure as a kind of parallel hands-on metaphor for building representative government. This would have thrown Sunnis and Shiias together on their jobs, without the time or inclination to hate and kill each other. And the country would likely have been the better for it.

It's a shame that the idea has come along so late. The opportunity is tragically gone.

November 16, 2006 9:56 PM  
Blogger Fixer said...

Twice a year we go through our clostes and the kitchen and donate anything we don't wear or use anymore. At least someone not so fortunate can get a hand up.

November 17, 2006 2:13 AM  
Anonymous Betty Cracker said...

Not only do people take more pride in the things they themselves build, they can get behind a revolution they themselves started.

I think it is possible to implement a new form of government at gunpoint (Japan, Germany), but only if the old order is utterly defeated and if you have an absolute monopoly on violence. I'm not advocating this by any means, but I think those are the necessary conditions, which clearly do not exist in Iraq.

November 17, 2006 3:32 AM  
Blogger JBlue said...

WE made such a mess of it, I don't know how it can be fixed. Sorry to be so glum. Also, these are not groups inclined to cooperate with each other. Just a sad, sad situation.

November 17, 2006 12:33 PM  
Anonymous Libby said...

I've thought exactly that many times PoP. If we had employed the Iraqis from the beginning it would have been different. The unemployment rate is fueling the violence as much as the sectarian differences.

November 17, 2006 5:31 PM  

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