Monday, August 07, 2006

Hamas and Hezbollah

If a country doesn’t want groups like Hamas and Hezbollah to spring up, they must try not to leave serious gaps in their society.

You can see what these two groups have in common.

“In addition to its military wing, the so-called Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigade, Hamas devotes much of its estimated $70-million annual budget to an extensive social services network. It funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. "Approximately 90 percent of its work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities," writes the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz.”

Hezbollah “ It garners popular support among Lebanese by setting up schools, hospitals and other social services.”

Remind you of anything? How about the security gaps that were left in Iraq after the American troops arrived in Baghdad?


Blogger Robert said...

Good morning! I have made severa posts about the three separate wingsof the parties...and how it has given them success in the long run. I have also offered the opinion that the US should take in the lessons of the methodology and make some changes.

First, we have been doing substantial civil works projects. Building road, schools, hospitals, etc. A friend of mine is the commander of an Army Reserve construction unit, and they paved the entire road between Baghdad and Kuwait that was just dirt when we invaded.

Second, there is a problem in the US using this model. Hamas and Hezbollah are only competing with like minded governments. That is to say, all involved are Muslim, and H/H only have to win a popular opinion. We are trying to change the mindset of the region, and are trying to establish an entirely new concept of government and freedoms. It isn't quite the same, and presents many more difficulties.

August 07, 2006 5:06 AM  
Blogger Walt said...

That's the one thing that is either glossed over or completely ignored by the media and the pundits - the fact that these groups actually walk the walk when they say they're helping people.

One of the Five Pillars of Islam is "zakat," or charity. The Qur'an exhorts people to give alms to the poor and less fortunate, and it seems that it's not only effective, but it's good PR.

August 07, 2006 5:07 AM  
Blogger Mimus Pauly said...

I've made complimentary notes of Hezbollah's community service side in my blog and in other bloggers' comments sections. But you know, their rockets fall on children just like Israeli rockets do -- Hezbollah isn't exactly the Red Cross. I had no use for Hezbollah before they got into it with Israel last month, and I never will. And I ain't too thrilled with Israel right now, either -- it has every right to exist, but no right to run roughshod over its neighbors.

As an American, I guess I'm not in much of a position to pass judgment like this. The Arabs who have lived in the Middle East for millennia and the Jews who went centuries as a people without their own country are probably the best qualified judges. And yet their best solution to putting an end to decades of senseless violence in the region is, apparently, to engage in more senseless violence.

Some people side with Hezbollah in this conflict; others side with Israel. Here's my side: Screw 'em both, I'm with Lebanon...

August 07, 2006 5:49 AM  
Blogger Darius said...

Mimus pauly makes a good point that could be extended further: a great many "leaders" around the world seem to care little to nothing about the interests of the people they supposedly serve.

August 07, 2006 7:12 AM  
Blogger Keir said...

Successive US governments have done everything they can to dismantle socialist (as opposed to big s "Socialist") aspirations in the Middle East (and elsewhere, obviously). (Then there's the election of Hamas earlier this year, apprently one of the most transparent elections run anywhere, ever.)

As for reminding of about the serious gaps in US society? Who'll pick up the slack there?

August 07, 2006 8:07 AM  
Blogger Rob said...

Patricia - Thanks for visiting & commenting on my blog!
I enjoyed reading your posts. I have to agree with Keir's view of the US. In many ways, we could us our very own Hezbollah when it comes to social issues... Since our own government isn't capable of stepping up to the plate. It's no wonder the Lebanese people still support Hezbollah. Why bite the had that feeds you? And pays the rent in many cases...

August 07, 2006 8:25 AM  
Blogger SB Gypsy said...

In all of the revolutions around the world including the American, Russian, India vs GB, vietnamese, Cuban, French, and on and on...

In all those cases, the revolutionary forces not only set up their own shadow govt beforehand, they took care of the people and funded the infrastructure that fostered prosperity. It was only after they demonstrated solidarity with the people and competence in governing that they were able to take over the political landscape.

Our efforts around the world that manifest in wars, death squads, and abuse of the citizens will never foster democracy. People are not stupid, even if they don't have the most modern society.

When we abandon the ideals that our country is founded on, we not only fail in our objectives, we loose our liberty at home. People know when you are double dealing, lying, and prevaricating. When you are found to be murdering, raping and abusing innocent people, like what we did in South America during the Raygun years, you damage your own credibility to the point that whenever there are atrocities, the US comes to mind, and people wonder. Shock and Awe didn't help anything, it only hurt our chances of seeing peace in our lifetimes.

When the President of the United States of America does not know that "The Leader of the Free World" moniker must be bestowed from the outside, and cannot by definition be taken upon oneself, there's something very wrong with the country.


August 07, 2006 8:37 AM  
Blogger Jamie said...

Walt, The word for charity and Hebrew are almost identical Tzedaka. This whole concept of charity within the Talmud and the Koran lays out a fundamental precept of both religions. Makes you wonder why these sons of Abraham keep trying to kill each other - just proves nothing is so virulent as a family feud.

August 07, 2006 9:43 AM  
Blogger Human said...

More disinfo from Robert.

This is a pic taken in the aftermath of the Gulf War of the so-called Highway of Death.
Original Page

As anyone with eyes to see Highway 80 is asphalt not dirt. At this location HWY 80 is also dual. They even have telephones there Robert. You'll notice a severe lack of camels too.

Some reports on Reconstruction
So much for reconstruction

Reconstruction Plan

War Makers Money Takers

"We are trying to change the mindset of the region, and are trying to establish an entirely new concept of government and freedoms."

Yes indeed. Government by occupation and the freedom to die a horrible death.

Has anybody else noticed a resurgence of Bushusefools visiting sites like the one here? Remember when Sen Santorum said WMD was found in Iraq a little bit ago? Since then the latest poll reveals that 50% are still buying that crap. Every lie needs to be rebutted. I know, I know it gets tiring.

Please pick an aspect of the Bush Regime(Corruption, Iraq Lies, stolen elections etc) keep track of onging revelations, bookmark'em and keep them ready to expose the lies of people like Robert, Santorum and Bush.

Peace it's possible. We just have to fight back every lie with a full salvo of truth.

August 07, 2006 10:09 AM  
Blogger Human said...

This is the pic
that shows HHWY 80 as being dual.


August 07, 2006 10:14 AM  
Blogger boneman said...

I really don't have any understanding of the politics involved other than the serious similarities to our own.
I'm of the mind that we take all the political leaders (now, here's an oxymoron!) from every country in the world and put them all on a very small, uninhabited island and hire really big, angry people t'shoot them if they try t'swim away.....
Not a "perfect" idea, as far as ideas go, but, basically, a good start.

August 07, 2006 10:30 AM  
Blogger Robert said...

A couple of things, Human. First, I am intimatel familiar with both the terrain and the infrasructure of Kuwait. I helped out with the "Highway of Death" as the highway to Basra is known, as I was part of the 2nd Marine Division who forced them from Kuwait City.

Secondly, the pic you show is in Kuwait, close to the border, but still Kuwait.

August 07, 2006 10:41 AM  
Blogger Jeremiah said...

Hey, boneman. Pink Floyd wrote a tune about just that. It is a place called "the fletcher memorial home for incurable tyrants and kings." Read the lyrics here. Pretty much what you're proposing...

August 07, 2006 10:49 AM  
Blogger GraemeAnfinson said...

good point. The just had a huge pro-hezbollah march in IRaq

August 07, 2006 11:50 AM  
Blogger BrotherCurmudgeon said...

Many of you may be too young to remember the very beginning of The Black Panther Party. (Or, maybe you choose to NOT remember.)

However, having been there I remember, feeding programs. After school gatherings and such. What brought them to the attention of J. Mugger Hoover was their propensity to do these deeds while advocating, B-L-A-C-K-N-E-S-S!!!!!!---That, along with the "right to bare arms."

Many argue that this was not the case. However, I can attest with absolute certainty the the beginning was exactly so!

August 07, 2006 11:52 AM  
Blogger Human said...

Quite the he-man Robert.

Some pics taken by SPC Allard of the 299th Engineers in 2003

Rolling Along

On Our Way

No WMD so said KAY

This is the route that they took into Baggers and beyond.

As one can see by perusing the pics in places sand/dirt does blow onto the Highway obscuring the asphalt. Also because of the severe damage done by U.S. forces (over 50 bridges destroyed) some of the HWY was obliterated.

It seems that the only thing you are "intimatel familiar with" is the upper
"infrasructure" of your colon Robert.

August 07, 2006 11:59 AM  
Blogger Chancelucky said...

It hasn't come up thus far, but I was wondering if you were inviting comparison between Hezbollah and the Black Panthers who combined guns with breakfast and literacy programs.

August 07, 2006 12:03 PM  
Blogger Robert said...

Human, I have no idea what your point is. I never said that this was the highway I was referring to, and in fact I have no idea what highway my friend was referring to. It is some highway that runs south of Baghdad, and when you leave the city it became sand. The entire thing is now paved from start to finish, and I believe that he told me it went to Kuwait.

I never said there were no paved roads there. I am simply saying that we have put work into civil affairs.

August 07, 2006 12:50 PM  
Blogger betmo said...

well, i guess i am a bit late to the party. :) it only makes sense. i am no fan of hezbollah or hamas. they are political entities that use religion and social programs to further their aims at power. i don't particularly care what their platform is- blow israel to smithereens or take over the middle east or whatever- it is not benevolent. having said that- i can see why the people of the region look to them as saviors and heroes. the oil money doesn't trickle down to everyone- just like here- and therefore they reach out to whoever makes them safe and secures their needs. if we would have thought about that in the middle east and actually had a good plan- we could have won the hearts and minds of the folks in the middle east and built upon the democracies in lebanon, bahrain, etc. that wasn't our goal to start with and peace isn't now. we are using israel as a means to our ends and they are allowing themselves to be used. all for money.

August 07, 2006 2:08 PM  
Blogger Ole Blue The Heretic said...

If you do not help the impovrished they shall abhor you and revolt against you.

August 07, 2006 2:38 PM  
Blogger Peacechick Mary said...

Oh dear. I just wanted to say that the whole world seems to have an ever widening gap between the haves and the have nots. I don't think politiicans anywhere care whether the poor are helped and that includes the Vatican.

August 07, 2006 3:49 PM  
Blogger Rory Shock said...

when these groups help people they are accused of an ulterior motive ... who the f cares ... helping a person is helping a person ... it ain't all black and white ...

August 07, 2006 4:00 PM  
Blogger LadyCelticFire said...

OMG It sounds almost.. almost.. almost Socialist!!!! How DARE they provide food, healthcare and education... I Mean REALLY!!!

August 07, 2006 4:02 PM  
Blogger LadyCelticFire said...

And chanceluck, GREAT comparison... I actually hadn't thought of that myself, but yes I can definatly see the similarities.. I have been blogging on my site as PoP has seen, about WHY, I think, Hamas and Hizbollah came into power. A people repressed will only remain repressed so long...

Betmo, I can't agree with MOST of what you said, but I am in TOTAL agreement on the last part about Money...

Human: I couldn't agree more... we HAVE to fight EVERY lie as if our lives depended on it, because in all actuallity, our lives MAYvery well depend on it...

Bonehead, I SECOND that motion HA

Brother, you are correct, the Black Panthers came to Hoovers attentions because they actually were OMG PROUD tobe black. They took back their power as I like to say. And yes they also USED their constitutinal Right to Bare Arms. While I disagree with MUCH of what the so called New Black Panther Party does, the original Black Panther Party was in my humble opinion, EXACTLY what the black community NEEDED. If the new one would learn some of Huey's lessons and USE them today... WOW can you imagine.. the Aftermath of Katrina would not have been NEARLY the same..

Damn PoP I didn't expect to have THIS much to say today haha You opened a good ol hornets nest... Good Job Sistah :D

August 07, 2006 4:19 PM  
Blogger Criss said...

Please do not start is just too depressing. Power vacuums always lead to very nasty events. I keep hoping Tecumseh's Curse will kick back in...we are due =)

August 07, 2006 5:19 PM  
Anonymous Adorable Girlfriend said...

It reminds me of the Jehovah Witness that have a summer camp in the town I own in NY. The town loves to accept money from them for the firehouse, courthouse, etc. I keep saying this is a dangerous idea given what will they want in exchange. (Disclaimer: I have no issue with J.W.,just want to keep Church and State separate.) Nobody listens to me. They will learn the hard way.

August 07, 2006 6:35 PM  
Anonymous abi said...

Great point, PoP. Lots of interesting comments, too.

The admin and its friends in the media like to pretend that Hamas came to power pretty much by accident. Your post tells a story we don't hear much in the US.

And $5 says Hezbollah is going to win a good deal more than its current 14 seats in Parliament next time around.

August 07, 2006 7:16 PM  
Blogger Human said...

Robert - My point is lies like
yours, Bush's and Santorum's kill people.

The only part of anything you write on this thread that is believable is from your last posted comment. "I have no idea"....

I wish you did Robert. I really wish you did.


August 07, 2006 7:35 PM  
Blogger Human said...

Ladycelticfire - Thanks. We agree on most things I think.


August 07, 2006 8:02 PM  
Blogger sumo said...

You can't leave out Angela Davis...what were you thinking?!!

August 08, 2006 2:08 AM  
Anonymous Betty Cracker said...

Good point. Islamists groups win popular support by providing security and charity in chaotic, dysfunctional societies. It's happening in Somolia, Iraq, etc.

They also thrive in autocratic societies that don't allow political dissent -- the mosque becomes the center of opposition, the one place the authorities don't have the guts to completely shut down.

August 08, 2006 3:14 AM  
Blogger Bill said...

This article makes the point. Hezbollah IS Lebanon, the government. Therefore it was Lebanon that attacked Israel and Israel is responding the only way short of surrendering.

The confusion comes when people refer to Hezbollah as though it was a country and even mark off it's territory yet insist it's only an organization and somehow Israel is obligated to selectively respond to it/them.

OK so Israelie troops have bad aim. They were shooting at a bunker south of town and took out a bridge on the north side. Happens. If Lebanon doesn't want it to happen then Lebanon and no one else must poilce their territory, BEFORE. No one in his right mind would let them try AFTER. It's after.

Hezbollah and others can be viewed as a mind set and nothing more. This will continue until the mind is changed. That will only happen when the individual members of Hezbollah understand that they must change mind or die. We're not even talking that. I believe Israel is at least hinting at it.

The problem is religion. It's the source of the mind set that is cast in case hardened steel. Perhaps we could lead by setting a good example ourselves. gives us an opportunity to understand the religious mind set that will surly lead to world destruction. It's always up to the individual to take the first step towards peace.

August 08, 2006 9:34 AM  
Blogger DivaJood said...

Oh, the Black Panthers. What was the original plan? Food, housing, clothing? Jobs? Education? I forget, but it was quite altruistic. Eventually, they realized that their policy of Black Nationalism was another form of racism.

I heard Cory Booker on NPR this morning. He is Mayor of Newark NJ, and he said something compelling: the time for blame is over. Now is the time for people to take responsibility. Doesn't this apply to the Middle East as well as to his constituancy in Newark?

Rather than blaming Israel, or Hamas, or Hezbollah, or even our own government, isn't it time for the people (you, me, Israelis, Palestinians, Lebanese, Iranians) to step forward and say let's build a comprehensive peace rather than tear each other apart?

We are all so focused on who's the matter with me that we abdicate responsibility to find a solution. I put myself in this as well. Now is the time for the next step.

August 08, 2006 11:59 AM  
Blogger Fares said...

Harming Syria, Dream on
Say no to War. Please come and show love, support and solidarity for Syria which is apparently now on the neo-cons radar. YOUR COMMENTS ARE NEEDED.

August 08, 2006 5:08 PM  
Blogger LadyCelticFire said...

"OK so Israelie troops have bad aim" Damn Bill, then they must have REALLY REALLY bad aim, cause they keep "missing" their targets then... Read and listen to MORE than just FOX news Bill...If Israel has that bad of an "aim" then perhaps they should rethink their stance.... Good Lord, what a comment...
"That will only happen when the individual members of Hezbollah understand that they must change mind or die" And yet again another outstanding comment... Nowhere do you refer to Israel changing ITS mind in this statement... Remember Israel attacked first and as the interview on my blog with Galloway states, don't JUST go back 4 weeks... Learn YOUR history, I beg you, BEFORE you post ludacris comments like these...

Divajood, I agree to a certain extent, but when you have an ENTIRE country of people who have decided that their "problems" are caused SOLEY by another group of people, when you have Israeli children writing messages on bombs!!! Its very hard NOT to pass blame... This will not end until Israel is no longer a Zionist state... Ask MANY Orthodox Jews how they feel about Zionism and the end of Israel as a Zionist state, and they will WHOLE heartedly agree...

Fares: WOW Syria is on the radar now??? Thats not looking good... I say to everyone, mark my words... Look for the Draft... We MUST fight this NOW, before it is too late...

PoP thanks again for hosting this discussion... am learning ALOT about BOTH sides of this... Thanks

August 08, 2006 10:26 PM  
Blogger troutsky said...

A reasonable,legal settlement has been suggested by the international community for a decade ( return to 67 border, divided Jeruselum, reparations if not return for palestinian refugees) but one group has been intractable, the Zionists with US backing.This could have been done by Carter or Clinton as well but they refused and left us this mess.

August 10, 2006 5:35 PM  
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